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#31 magnetmannen

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 01:21 AM

if u get 3d studio max it has tutorials.
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#32 SewerCow

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:48 AM

QUOTE(Darkside @ Dec 8 2005, 05:51 PM)
You don't make a 3d model in a map editor. nuff said.

Well dern, don't I feel silly.
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#33 polyguns

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:58 AM

don't feel silly, cause darkside is wrong. you could make that car or my character in hammer or postal editor or unrealed. problem is it would be very inneficient, difficult as hell to make, and look like shit. farcry, no, no bsp modeling in that.

Better then 3dsmax, esp if your a noob, would be to get z-brush, easiest modeling ap ever to learn, great video tutorials for it and the zscript tutorials will build models right in front of you, so you can build a model that weighs about 150 meg with a 150 k download biggrin.gif

to make that car though, try this program, www.wings3d.com its free, you can get the whole user manual in pdf, and its only like a 5 meg download. its also a way better polymodeler then max or maya

now you know

and knowing is half the battle
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#34 Coyote

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:10 AM

QUOTE(polyguns @ Dec 9 2005, 01:58 PM)
don't feel silly, cause  darkside is wrong. you could make that car or my character in hammer or postal editor or unrealed. problem is it would be very inneficient, difficult as hell to make, and look like shit. farcry, no, no bsp modeling in that.

Actually he's right, he didn't say you 'cant' he said you 'don't' which is correct, you dont.
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#35 polyguns

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 05:30 AM

no, you DO. a bsp model is still a model you silly goose. go into hammer, make some geometry, and eport it as a dxf, then import it into a 3d ap like wings. then you'll see for yourself.

BSP modeling is no different then modeling anywhere except that it creates alot of unnesisary geometry, which is why it will one day be extinct, and probably replaced by real modeling right in the editor. Binary space partition, behaves just like booleon modeling as its called in any 3d ap. in class one day this guy was making something and i said "why don't you just make that with booleons" his answer was "because i already know how to model"

at the time i didn't understand, but now i do, and you cna find out exporting some created statics from hammer and import them into a modeling program. Your modeling options are limited, if your creating a shape by attaching cubes together, useing a booleon ffunction, that non seen geometry is still there, you just can't see it. Hammer doesn;t offer the flexibility of deleting and merging verts the same as you can in a 3d ap, thats why when i was making statics for hl2 mods, mappers would send me the statics they made in hammer, and I would have to remodel, reunwrap, and retexture them. A shape such as a cube for a room isn;'t bad, cause you see all 4 sides, but when you start to use alot your r-speeds really become laggy

thats why you see some editors like farcry, can handle the masive amount of polies, huge view distances, cause your gemoetry is all optimized. you , but in engines like source using hammer, you can't, because all of that gemometry is still there, its just unseen.

so why not just build with models only in source? well because you need to build bsp around them in order to keep you from walking through it. you do the same with farcry, called collision meshes. hl2 uses collision meshes but they don't behave the same way supposedly, hell that im not sure of.

benefit of it though is you can build your whole level in source, but bsp is still gonna disappear. The future will be having a complete modeling and unwraping program in your engine that allows you to fully develop geometry and manipulate on a per face basis, uncluding lofts etc. As graphically demanding as games are nowadays, keeping an engine bsp will eventually keep you from reaching the levels of other engines. which is why source probably will probably be outflanked by nearly everyone over the next year or two
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#36 Coyote

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 08:52 AM

Poly, Poly, Poly, always trying to complicate things in an effort to sound intelligent. All Darkside was suggesting is that people donít use level editors to model, in which case he's correct.
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#37 chuckybob

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 10:42 AM

QUOTE(polyguns @ Dec 9 2005, 05:30 AM)
no, you DO. a bsp model is still a model you silly goose. go into hammer, make some geometry, and eport it as a dxf, then import it into a 3d ap like wings. then you'll see for yourself.

BSP modeling is no different then modeling anywhere except that it creates alot of unnesisary geometry, which is why it will one day be extinct, and probably replaced by real modeling right in the editor. Binary space partition, behaves just like booleon modeling as its called in any 3d ap. in class one day this guy was making something and i said "why don't you just make that with booleons" his answer was "because i already know how to model"

at the time i didn't understand, but now i do, and you cna find out exporting some created statics from hammer and import them into a modeling program. Your modeling options are limited, if your creating a shape by attaching cubes together, useing a booleon ffunction, that non seen geometry is still there, you just can't see it. Hammer doesn;t offer the flexibility of deleting and merging verts the same as you can in a 3d ap, thats why when i was making statics for hl2 mods, mappers would send me the statics they made in hammer, and I would have to remodel, reunwrap, and retexture them. A shape such as a cube for a room isn;'t bad, cause you see all 4 sides, but when you start to use alot your r-speeds really become laggy

thats why you see some editors like farcry, can handle the masive amount of polies, huge view distances, cause your gemoetry is all optimized. you , but in engines like source using hammer, you can't, because all of that gemometry is still there, its just unseen.

so why not just build with models only in source? well because you need to build bsp around them in order to keep you from walking through it. you do the same with farcry, called collision meshes. hl2 uses collision meshes but they don't behave the same way supposedly, hell that im not sure of.

benefit of it though is you can build your whole level in source, but bsp is still gonna disappear. The future will be having a complete modeling and unwraping program in your engine that allows you to fully develop geometry and manipulate on a per face basis, uncluding lofts etc. As graphically demanding as games are nowadays, keeping an engine bsp will eventually keep you from reaching the levels of other engines. which is why source probably  will probably be outflanked by nearly everyone over the next year or two


i was right there with you at first... :/

bsp isnt a form of modeling, its a form of rendering that helps the engine determine which surfaces are in front of which. (BSP = Binary *Space Partition*). hammer uses boolean modeling. boolean modeling will be around forever, because its damned time efficient. the "non-seen geometry" in source is taken out by the bsp compiler, except for the geometry that's in the rest of the visible leaf(s). As far as I'm aware, other engines require geometry behind other geometry to be loaded and tracked as well in order to display it correctly.

hammer allows deleting and merging of vertices on a per-polygon basis.

try not to forget poly, most of the reason why farcry can render large expanses so well is terrain LOD and extensive use of LOD on models.

i agree with you that bsp is a gonner, but i think source's way of building and texturing environments will out last every other standard in the games industry. accessability and content re-useability always triumphs over the old standards.
QUOTE(polyguns @ Dec 19 2005, 08:47 PM)
lol, philosophy majors were so funny in college. to have a degree in thinking you would think they would think how the fuck they would get a job thinking. but to think about it  i spent 6.5 years in college still no job in what i did; think about that!

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#38 polyguns

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:33 PM

the only reason why valve kept hammer, kept so much of their tech was for the modders, thats it. hammer is already so outdated. you think they wanted to make you wait 60 seconds for a load of a level that takes 5 minutes to play? im sure they didn't, but if their mod tools were drastically different then hl's, they woulda absolutly freaked out a commuity scared of change and anything non valve.

I seriously doubt that it takes the geometry you, its more like you can't see it because of normals. like if you have a cube, witha hole, you look into it, you don;t see it on the other side, no double sided faces. Maya has double sided faces by default, so when you export this geometry to maya, you definatly see it.

You know im right on the geometry thing. I have done static models for 2 mods where i had to seriously clean up the geometry from statics created in hammer. If you could delete faces, and merge verticies, then you could model that car the way it is, and import it into max or maya, exactly the way it is. but just because you can't see something, doesn't mean its not there. all geometry renders in polygons, which is why booleon modeling is so scary and limited. your right its easy to get a quick effect, but things that are so complicated would become insane to render if made booleon.

now, not unrealed. this is one thing i don't understand about valve, honestly how anyone can think hammer is so advanced when it can't do something as simple as import geometry as a brush, as unrealed could 5 years ago, its mindblowing. I rememember modeling a charaacter, importing it and making it a whole level in unrealed in about 5 mins, so your character could run all over it and everything. unrealed is the ultimate bsp map editor
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#39 Coyote

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 03:06 AM

QUOTE(polyguns @ Dec 10 2005, 03:33 AM)
the only reason why valve kept hammer, kept so much of their tech was for the modders, thats it. hammer is already so outdated. you think they wanted to make you wait 60 seconds for a load of a level that takes 5 minutes to play? im sure they didn't, but if their mod tools were drastically different then hl's, they woulda absolutly freaked out a commuity scared of change and anything non valve.

I seriously doubt that it takes the geometry you, its more like you can't see it because of normals. like if you have a cube, witha hole, you look into it, you don;t see it on the other side, no double sided faces. Maya has double sided faces by default, so when you export this geometry to maya, you definatly see it.

You know im right on the geometry thing. I have done static models for 2 mods where i had to seriously clean up the geometry from statics created in hammer. If you could delete faces, and merge verticies, then you could model that car the way it is, and import it into max or maya, exactly the way it is.  but just because you can't see something, doesn't mean its not there. all geometry renders in polygons, which is why booleon modeling is so scary and limited. your right its easy to get a quick effect, but things that are so complicated would become insane to render if made booleon.

now, not unrealed. this is one thing i don't understand about valve, honestly how anyone can think hammer is so advanced when it can't do something as simple as import geometry as a brush, as unrealed could 5 years ago, its mindblowing. I rememember modeling a charaacter, importing it and making it a whole level in unrealed in about 5 mins, so your character could run all over it and everything. unrealed is the ultimate bsp map editor

Seriousley dude, get over unreal
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If its as good as you say it is, it would be the mod communities premium mod toolset which it isnt


PS: I made the pic for this very occasion lol

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#40 polyguns

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 06:06 PM

what do you mean it isn't? have you seen the quality of the mods for it?

Ive been job hunting like mad here lately. of all the jobs I have ever looked for, I have NEVER ONCE found a job that requests "experience with source" or "experience with hammer" But MANY that say "experience with unreal preferred"

unreal, not source, is the tool of hoice for devs, bottom line, even after a year its still the choice. Sygill games is making a MMO with unreal, with water that looks better then hl2's, with normal mapping and everything. not sure about physics, but you can add anything with the sourcecode.

and I thought I was a farcry fanboi? in your eyes, if someone thinks anything is better then source, then they are a fanboi? shit jabe ain't jesus and source isn't that great of an engine anymore. when it was suppose to come out, yea it was nice, nowadays meh, pretty standard. Anyone can incorporate havoc physics into anything, no biggie.

your the fanboi biotch, cause you fail to realize the greatness of other engines. Unreal fanboi, wtf, I don't even own 2k4, never played it, haven't played unreal in forever, but being able to use models as brushes is a great feature.

I was chatting yesterday with a dev on unreal, and asked him about my theory of bsp versus models. he said :bsp? and im like yea, what unreal uses for level geometry, and hes like " we use maya to model everything"

they don't even use bsp, can't, cause their making a mmo, and every poly counts when you have wide environments long viewdistances and a shitton of vegitation
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#41 Darkside

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 07:59 PM

You guys argue way too much about pointless stuff. I think I settled the matter very concisely back on page 2.

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You don't make a 3d model in a map editor. nuff said.


Since you haven't talked about poly's model in 2 pages I'm closing this.

Edited by Darkside, 10 December 2005 - 08:00 PM.





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